What if Superman had lose with Captain Marvel?

[carmelo]

What if DC comics lose the legal battle with Fawcett in 1953,and Captain Marvel remains in the newspaper kiosks?In this case how imagined Cap and the marvel family in the 50s and 60s? and which consequences  they could have had on the Superman of the Weisinger -comic code era? Could have Superman become more child oriented to contrast captain Marvel?And kurt schaffenberger would be remained with the Fawcett? And if yes who could have designed Lois Lane? Bob Oksner maybe?                                                                                                              

[JulianPerez]

This is actually a very interesting question, I think. Certainly Captain Marvel would have been incorporated into DC at some point. It's absurd to think of Fawcett surviving, when Tower and Charleton didn't.

A few predictions of mine on what would have happened:

1) Expect Billy Batson to have aged past ten, possibly into his teen years. This is what happened to Dick Grayson and other characters. Hey, it's the sixties! Teens were the in-thing, between Rick Jones and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

2) As times go by, look for a reduction in the cartoonishness of the art. Of all the artists that were working outside of DC and Marvel at the time, the ones that jump to mind right away are Wally Wood and Steve Ditko, and neither of them draw like C.C. Beck. In fact, C.C. Beck would be treated much less like Marvel's Curt Swan, much more like Joe Shuster: an early, rough and cartoony version of the character instead of being the "definitive" Red Cheese.

3) Depending on how long Captain Marvel lasts...look for Neal Adams covers!

4) If Otto Binder was still writing it, expect it to have jumped the shark in a phenomenal way. Ever read any Otto Binder story after 1961? They're beyond sad. Consider Binder's Insect Queen/Oggar-Kan Superboy/Legion story, which (I'm not kidding here) is the story that followed up the Sun-Eater and the death of Ferro Lad.

Kurt Busiek followed up MARVELS with ASTRO CITY. What chased down the greatest Legion story of all time? A gimmick story about Lana turning into Insect Queen "forever" (yet, I'm betting she was normal by the end of the story) and, in true Mary Sue fashoin, saving the universe and making all the Legionnaires LOVE her.

I wonder what Otto Binder's journal entry that day would look like. I'm sure it would be hilarious schadenfreude:


Dear Diary,

Some days, you can just TASTE the oil on the barrel of the gun you're going to put in your mouth.

Curt Swan laughed right in my face today. "Nice script there, Otto," he said. "What, did you get it from a wormhole leading to 1952? I think it's missing something, though. Hey, how about a few magical elves looking for lost cookies?" I'm going to strangle that Swedish jackass if its the last thing I ever do.

The fan mail's already come in for that punk kid Shooter's Legion stories. Me, I think it's not bad for the sort of thing a thirteen year old would come up with, but a mature professional like me would do it with more panache. Where's the ending where Ferro Lad comes back on the last pageand tells his friends he actually only pretended to die to teach the Legionnaires a lesson about friendship? Where's the Red Kryptonite?

The mental defectives that buy ADVENTURE lap it up, though. Validus, Persuader, Karate Kid, Princess Projectra? In ten years, nobody'll remember their names. Now the Goatman and Crocodile Men from Punkus C.C. Beck and I did? Now there's classic material.

This story about Lana Lang transforming into stuff is going to blow that punk out of the water. I'm Otto Frickin-Binder! I refuse to be outdone by a thirteen year old kid.

- O.B.

[Super Monkey]

Who do you hate more Grant or Otto?

Wally Wood on Captian Marvel would have been awesome beyond words.

[Criadoman]

My take...

1. We'd have a very subtle and swift change into the silver age Cap'n,
2. Cap'n meets Cap'n E2 who is retconned into the JSA,
3. The Guardians ask "Must there be a Captain Marvel?"
4. Get ready, here comes the "Sandman" Cap'n Marvel!!!
5. "Mar-vell" who?
6. As a trial to see whether there is a market for that old horse Superman, DC publishes a similar character to Superman called "Supreme Man" and has him square off against Cap'n Marvel in his own book.
7. Cap'n introduces the "original" Superman on the cover of Superman's 1st issue since the 1950's.
8. "Shazam" the Movie
9. Billy and ??(fill in the blank): The New Adventures of Cap'n Marvel
10. Shazam:TAS
11. The Death of Cap'n Marvel!!!
12. The Reign of the (Lieutenant) Marvels
13. "The Misadventures of Freddy Freeman" (a la "Smallville")
14. Earth-Prime's Cap'n Marvel Jr.s retcon punch heard 'round the universe,
15. 4th and 5th attempts to re-establish Superman in the DCU happen concurrently - "Trials of Kal-El" and "Superman vs. the Superman Revenge Squad",
16. The long awaited "Shazam Returns" comes out, and fans up in arms over how much it is like the 1st movie.  Singer's name walking close to infamy.

(Somewhere I missed "Cap'n Marvel's Pal - Talky Tawney", and "Life with Uncle Dudley", and Mary Marvel's "I am a curious... Black"; let alone the "intense dreams" Cap'n has about a certain Amazon.)

[davidelliott]

A few predictions of mine on what would have happened:

1) Expect Billy Batson to have aged past ten, possibly into his teen years. This is what happened to Dick Grayson and other characters. Hey, it's the sixties! Teens were the in-thing, between Rick Jones and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

2) As times go by, look for a reduction in the cartoonishness of the art. Of all the artists that were working outside of DC and Marvel at the time, the ones that jump to mind right away are Wally Wood and Steve Ditko, and neither of them draw like C.C. Beck. In fact, C.C. Beck would be treated much less like Marvel's Curt Swan, much more like Joe Shuster: an early, rough and cartoony version of the character instead of being the "definitive" Red Cheese.

Some cool points, Julian... these two I singled out because DC did this, actually, during the SHAZAM! run... Billy, Mary and Freddy looked like they were in their mid to late teens, especially when Schaffenberger drew them!  Billy's hair was a little longer, his face a little more teenaged looking and don't forget the clothes all 3 wore!  Even Billy got an updated wardrobe in several stories.  THEN the last 2 issues of the series featured Alan Weiss art and Don Newton art in the final issue (Newton carried on the art when the series was moved to World's Finest).  A REAL big change there...

[llozymandias]

This is actually a very interesting question, I think. Certainly Captain Marvel would have been incorporated into DC at some point. It's absurd to think of Fawcett surviving, when Tower and Charleston didn't.


    It's not absurd to think of Fawcett surviving.  There were two main reasons for Fawcett discontinuing its comics line.  One was the long-running DC lawsuit.  The other was the fact that comics sales were dropping.  DC's intent (in the lawsuit) was to eliminate the Marvel Family.  Fawcett stopped publishing the Marvel Family titles as part of an out-of-court settlement with DC.  Fawcett wanted to eliminate the legal fees that fighting the lawsuit was costing them.  You can lose a lawsuit without losing in court.  Without the Marvel Family titles Fawcett's line had no real moneymakers.  Also it's unfair to compare Fawcett with Tower & Charlton.  Fawcett was a major publisher.  Tower & Charlton were not.




A few predictions of mine on what would have happened:

1) Expect Billy Batson to have aged past ten, possibly into his teen years. This is what happened to Dick Grayson and other characters. Hey, it's the sixties! Teens were the in-thing, between Rick Jones and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

2) As times go by, look for a reduction in the cartoonishness of the art. Of all the artists that were working outside of DC and Marvel at the time, the ones that jump to mind right away are Wally Wood and Steve Ditko, and neither of them draw like C.C. Beck. In fact, C.C. Beck would be treated much less like Marvel's Curt Swan, much more like Joe Shuster: an early, rough and cartoony version of the character instead of being the "definitive" Red Cheese.

3) Depending on how long Captain Marvel lasts...look for Neal Adams covers!

4) If Otto Binder was still writing it, expect it to have jumped the shark in a phenomenal way. Ever read any Otto Binder story after 1961? They're beyond sad. Consider Binder's Insect Queen/Oggar-Kan Superboy/Legion story, which (I'm not kidding here) is the story that followed up the Sun-Eater and the death of Ferro Lad.

Kurt Busiek followed up MARVELS with ASTRO CITY. What chased down the greatest Legion story of all time? A gimmick story about Lana turning into Insect Queen "forever" (yet, I'm betting she was normal by the end of the story) and, in true Mary Sue fashoin, saving the universe and making all the Legionnaires LOVE her.

I wonder what Otto Binder's journal entry that day would look like. I'm sure it would be hilarious schadenfreude:


Dear Diary,

Some days, you can just TASTE the oil on the barrel of the gun you're going to put in your mouth.

Curt Swan laughed right in my face today. "Nice script there, Otto," he said. "What, did you get it from a wormhole leading to 1952? I think it's missing something, though. Hey, how about a few magical elves looking for lost cookies?" I'm going to strangle that Swedish jackass if its the last thing I ever do.

The fan mail's already come in for that punk kid Shooter's Legion stories. Me, I think it's not bad for the sort of thing a thirteen year old would come up with, but a mature professional like me would do it with more panache. Where's the ending where Ferro Lad comes back on the last pageand tells his friends he actually only pretended to die to teach the Legionnaires a lesson about friendship? Where's the Red Kryptonite?

The mental defectives that buy ADVENTURE lap it up, though. Validus, Persuader, Karate Kid, Princess Projectra? In ten years, nobody'll remember their names. Now the Goatman and Crocodile Men from Punkus C.C. Beck and I did? Now there's classic material.

This story about Lana Lang transforming into stuff is going to blow that punk out of the water. I'm Otto Frickin-Binder! I refuse to be outdone by a thirteen year old kid.

- O.B.

       Who do you hate more Otto Binder, Grant Morrison, or Jerry Siegel?

[DBN]

A bit off topic, but I wonder how the Binder family feels about the surviving Seigel clan's claim of ownership over an overall property that includes several of Otto's creations?

[JulianPerez]

A bit off topic, but I wonder how the Binder family feels about the surviving Seigel clan's claim of ownership over an overall property that includes several of Otto's creations?

Interesting. What's the status of this?

Ordinarily I'd say some sarcastic comment here, something like "What, you think the Siegels will just walk away and leave a crown jewel like Krypto the Super-Dog?"

But then I remember that kids show, which is making beaucoup bucks. Who wouldn't want to sicc their lawyers to get a piece of that action?

I've said this before, but Supergirl is such an obvious idea to do that NO ONE deserves credit for "creating" her.