"Heroes" (the new television series)

[Great Rao]

Super hero not in costume on TV? It's called "Smallville"

I can see the "not in costume" part, but you've completely lost me with the "super hero" bit.

[Aldous]

Super hero not in costume on TV? It's called "Smallville"

I can see the "not in costume" part, but you've completely lost me with the "super hero" bit.

Oh, don't you start! You're getting as bad as Super Monkey.

[Aldous]

Tried to watch the first couple shows and couldn't get into it.  Just as well, as the last thing I need is another complicated TV storyline demanding my time and attention.

In fact, I've about decided to skip "Lost" when it comes back in February.  That leaves "the Office" as the only thing I'm watching, and that I can handle.

Maybe I'll get around to "Heroes" when it hits DVD.  People sure seem to like it.

You thought that was complicated? I admit, it's trying desperately to be clever, but I wouldn't call it complicated. I have never seen "Lost" (about the plane crash? -- might have that wrong), but what prompted me to watch this show is the simple fact I like super-types.

I also really liked "The Office" but I don't think it's the same "Office" you are watching.

In the "Heroes" show, the character I liked was the Japanese man. He was the only one who seemed realistic to me. Maybe that's because I think I'd have his attitude if I started to manifest super-powers. All the other super-characters seem completely screwed-up and miserable (the Old Marvel type), but THIS Japanese man is like, WOW, COOL, THIS IS GRRRREAT!! (the Old DC type -- maybe  ). So perhaps I will watch again to see what happens with this one character I can relate to.

[Aldous]

It sounds interesting, but alas, I didn't watch the first few episodes, so I can't 'jump on" now - maybe I'll wait for it on DVD.

You know the very first thing I thought to myself when I heard the concept?

"Wow, I hope Jim Shooter is watching this now, because they're making THE NEW UNIVERSE: THE TV SHOW."

I wonder if Jim Shooter has the satisfaction years and years later, with the insane success of this show, to tell everyone he was right about the New Universe concept.

Which is essentially what HEROES is, the New Universe concept: e.g. superheroism without the costumes and over the top battles, where superheroes are an exclusively science fiction concept. Jim Shooter used the example of the first issue of the FANTASTIC FOUR as inspiration: in it, they didn't even wear costumes.

As someone that was a fan of the New Universe (the best work of Fabian Niceza's career to me was PSI-FORCE, which was much more adult and intelligent than the later NEW WARRIORS or even his post-Busiek THUNDERBOLTS) it is vindicating to see the concept "work" in such a high profile way.

When Jim Shooter dies, the three things he is going to be remembered for as a writer in his obituary, will be: his Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes, SECRET WARS, and last but not least, the incredible, humorous STAR BRAND.

I really like Jim Shooter's "Legion" work.

I actually remember "New Universe". It was on the stands when I was buying new comics. Wasn't it a sales disaster? Why? And what was he trying to accomplish? I have a very vague memory of reading the Bullpen or something many years ago to the effect that "New Universe" ended Jim's career at Marvel. Is that true?

I just had the feeling -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that Jim is like John, Paul, George, and Ringo..... He had his great success when very young, and forever after was trying unsuccessfully to live up to it.

[JulianPerez]

I actually remember "New Universe". It was on the stands when I was buying new comics. Wasn't it a sales disaster? Why?

Wow, that fiasco will assuredly dominate at least a chapter of Jim Shooter's memoirs. There are probably a million things that went wrong.

From what I understand, the New Universe titles failed because of the widespread perception they were pretty bad. A perception that in the case of many of the titles, was pretty accurate: KICKERS, INC. was about a football team that did good deeds, like tossing robots out of the ghetto. Gee, I wonder where it all went wrong.

Then there was SPITFIRE AND THE TROUBLESHOOTERS. Imagine a comic that not only HAS a character as annoying as Wesley Crusher, but where every single character IS Wesley Crusher. Even the hot robot-on-robot action, and Cary Bates writing the ending, couldn't save it.

I have a very vague memory of reading the Bullpen or something many years ago to the effect that "New Universe" ended Jim's career at Marvel. Is that true?

It certainly didn't help. I don't think it was the sole reason, because Jim - whether it was his own fault or not - alienated a hell of a lot of people in his tenure. This makes for unintentionally hilarious drama fagsplosions with supposed grown adults like John Byrne, who whine TO THIS DAY about how Jim was a "dictator."

A lot of people did take a craven, hyena-like glee in demolishing what Jim accomplished when he was no longer the big boss anymore, people that cowered before Jim's every word as Marvel's EIC. John Byrne's last few issues on STAR BRAND are known for Byrne doing what he does best: tearing things down and leaving nothing to replace it.

{quote="Aldous"]I just had the feeling -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that Jim is like John, Paul, George, and Ringo..... He had his great success when very young, and forever after was trying unsuccessfully to live up to it. [/quote]

The trouble with an assessment like that is, Jim was young for a very, very long time! He must have been in his middle twenties when he wrote his famous AVENGERS run featuring Count Nefaria's power duplication, the Korvac Saga, and the introduction of Jocasta and Carol Danvers. Then, absolutely he was at the height of his creative powers.

SECRET WARS he must have done in his thirties, as well as his MAGNUS, ROBOT FIGHTER.

And what was he trying to accomplish?

Well, it gave us the incredible Mark Texeira, so there's a point for the NU.

As I understand, Shooter wanted to celebrate Marvel's 25th Anniversary in 1986 by creating a second universe: one that was more "science fiction" than the pulpish, superheroic world the MU was, with Atlantis under the sea, the Inhumans, costumes made of "unstable molecules" that grow when you grow and stretch when you stretch, and so on.

All the other super-characters seem completely screwed-up and miserable (the Old Marvel type), but THIS Japanese man is like, WOW, COOL, THIS IS GRRRREAT!! (the Old DC type -- maybe   ). So perhaps I will watch again to see what happens with this one character I can relate to.

When did the Silver Age DC heroes ever really have fun with their powers? Spider-Man was the first hero to point out that wall-crawling is a thrill, and he used his powers to play pranks on J. Jonah. Hal Jordan and the rest always seemed caught up with catching experimental missiles. I can't even IMAGINE Ray Palmer being playful. I mean, the guy wears gloves when he drives.

[Aldous]

All the other super-characters seem completely screwed-up and miserable (the Old Marvel type), but THIS Japanese man is like, WOW, COOL, THIS IS GRRRREAT!! (the Old DC type -- maybe   ). So perhaps I will watch again to see what happens with this one character I can relate to.

When did the Silver Age DC heroes ever really have fun with their powers? Spider-Man was the first hero to point out that wall-crawling is a thrill, and he used his powers to play pranks on J. Jonah. Hal Jordan and the rest always seemed caught up with catching experimental missiles. I can't even IMAGINE Ray Palmer being playful. I mean, the guy wears gloves when he drives.

More in the way that here was an expression of their true selves, in keeping with their true natures, in the way an eagle doesn't know we call it an eagle or that flight is amazing; but this creature is giving us the truest expression of joy. I do not believe an eagle is "having fun", but I do believe it is happy when doing what it was born to do. Likewise with Hal and Ray (and Barry)... With these characters, I always got the feeling that this was meant to be, that fate has given its blessings to just the right people, and all is right with the world; that the power ring, the white dwarf shrinking technology, and the lightning-charged chemicals found their right and proper homes with these men; that the new powers were in keeping with their moral and physical strengths and true natures.

With Marvel, it was like, "Darn. These powers. Right, I'll try to make the best of it."

Could anyone BUT Hal Jordan have been chosen to be Green Lantern? Of course not. Could anyone but Peter have been bitten by that radioactive spider? Yes of course -- which gives THAT particular type of character his appeal.

[nightwing]

Aldous asks:

You thought that was complicated? I admit, it's trying desperately to be clever, but I wouldn't call it complicated. I have never seen "Lost" (about the plane crash? -- might have that wrong), but what prompted me to watch this show is the simple fact I like super-types.

Well, by "complicated" I didn't really mean challenging mentally, or even literate.  What I meant was you have a large cast of characters to follow through their disparate lives until they end up together in some common cause, guaranteeing (1) a lot of subplots to wade through and (2) no real pressure on the writers to resolve ANY of them.  Which is what we've endured for 3 years already on "Lost."

In fact, I felt like I was watching "Lost" again in some ways: there's the Middle Eastern genius, the oriental guy, the hot girl on the run, yadda yadd.

Everyone seems to agree with you in liking the "Hiro" character best.  But for most people, it's because he has a sense of honor and responsibility about his powers, as well as the "gee-whiz" excitement you mentioned.  Plus he's a comic book fan.  He's basically a Japanese Barry Allen.

I also really liked "The Office" but I don't think it's the same "Office" you are watching.

No, I never saw the original, UK version, and I'm actually glad I didn't.  From what I've heard it was brilliant, and the American version might suffer from the comparison.  As it is, I'm enjoying the latter, so why poop the party?

[JulianPerez]

I find it amusing that the comic book fan in HEROES is the most sympathetic and loveable character, whereas the comic book fan in THE OFFICE is by a wide margin, the least sympathetic.

The most interesting thing about THE OFFICE, to me, is the seldom seen on screen yet very true fact that a boss who is your "friend" can be every bit as annoying and intrusive as a boss that's a hardassed authoritarian.