What the evil creator (John Byrne) is saying

[Rugal 3:16]

Which brings me to the point of the pre-crisis Superman killing 5 times:
you shot yourself in the foot;those stories were depicted in the earlier versions
and the editorial changes about him having a code of ethics (and NOT killing anyone) is akin to changing browsers from the WINDOWS prototype to the newer versions.

Still he killed, so you can't fully use the term "post-crisis supes is a killer".

Besides,since Supes was becoming a role model,those changes were in order. The Superman that killed was the WINDOWS prototype,the Silver age Supes and even the Bronze age Supes never kilt anybody.

So bringing up the matter of Supes killing 5 times in his earlier days is just like complaining that WINDOWS 3.1 and the later versions are alike,to stretch an analogy.

Okie...

We are comparing different versions of Supes,and the first one wuz "bad".  

So making that accusation about the pre-crisis Supes killing 5 men is pointless.
It's like saying All men are mortal,Socrates was a mortal,therefore all men are Socrates.

you meant to say

Men = Mortal

Socrates = Mortal

therefore

Men = socrates.

[Rugal 3:16]

The question which should be asked is,"Which version killed his enemies without remorse?"  

Good question, simple answer.. The golden age.

Remember that Batman also killed a few villains in his early days in TEC. He even used a gun.  

I agree with you here

Only in the last Bronze age tale,"Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow"
was the only time he killed a villain,and even that was an imaginary tale.

everything in print is pretty much an imaginary tale to me.

[Rugal 3:16]

I'm sorry,I lost your line of thought...in case you don't remember,Supes' loss of both parents has been copied in one form or another ad nauseam by its competitors.

You haven't answered my question.

What would you prefer then?

Let's take Spider-Man for example: the death of his uncle Ben was the turning point in his life,and that has been replayed to death even in the Spider-Man Ultimate comic book.

as I said too many deaths.

A similar circumstance would be how Matt Murdock got started in crimefighting:his father,the boxer Jack Murdock,was shot to death by criminals because he refused to take a dive. Where did Stan Lee get those ideas from? The Batman saga,of course. Between Spidey and DD,my money's on DD (especially the Miller version)
any day. His struggles are more tragic compared to Spidey's.

Okay. But those figures are way more darker than superman, so an origin for them is fitting.

[Rugal 3:16]

I personally prefer the times when Supes lost his home and then his foster parents.

I respect that.
And I still personally prefer the reality when supes lost only his biological parents.. and I hope you can do that too.

Reasons:

1) Superman wa s and still is an alien,despite adopting Earth as his home planet.
The destruction of Krypton emphasized his unearthly origins,it gives us a background of how he got his great powers.

Nothing to dispute here.

Being an alien also denotes a certain dichotomy which echoes the story of Christ,where He was sent to Earth and conceived by a virgin (which is taught in cathecism in the Philippines and other Christian countries)

that's still for the home part.

Therein lies the paradox;he (Superman) is among us,but he is not like us.
And Kal lives and stays in earth,living like an earthman,but he knows his otherworldly origins. It is this paradox which is the core of the previous Supes.

Still what's the proof that this one is factually better rather than preference?? anyone can say they don't like the paradox, and saying it's "the core" could merely sound like your restraining supes.. keeping him limited.

Unfortunately,John Byrne dispensed with that aspect and made Supes reject his Kryptonian heritage...only in the last 3 years did DC correct that error,courtesy of Jeph Loeb and company in the Return to Krypton saga.

Byrne just had a different opinion than you, and he happened to be a writer.

I guess we have been too jaded with Supes origin that we fail to see how creative and fascinating it was as depicted by his own creators,Siegel and Shuster.

Byrne had rejected Kal's Kryptonian heritage completely...so even if Supergirl and Krypto and the Kandorians were not around,his version still stinks.

stinks?....
1. Prove it's a fact (without the "Majority's statement = fact")
2. Prove that people have Absolutely no right to enjoy this change?
3. Prove you're right and their wrong (that they should think the way you do and why it's the "right" way of thinking, and taste)..

so far I never said the Byrne version was factually correct.. I'm just defending it.

heck what if say 200 years from now, the current superman never got rebooted again, then that would make the Post crisis versoion have 150+ years of existence as opposed to the 40 years of the pre-crisis and anyone could use the argument about "upgrading windows" to support the post crisis version as you did when you used it against the golden age version which I have said my piece.

There are way too many kryptonian survivors. so much that it makes his first scene in him being the only one to be rocketed seem irrelevant if anyone looks at it casually.

The heritage thing I can agree with you on, but the kryptoninas are (aside from being humanoid form) designed too much like Jetson characters (no there's nothing wrong with the jetsons) but it makes thinking about krypton just viewing a distant future rather than thinking of something unearthly in exterior design (outside of the kryptonians humanoid forms like the Zentraedi)

But having said that.. the best krypton for me is the one in STAS (the WB cartoon) a hybrid of the pre-crisis' "legacy" and the post crisis' "unearthly" designs.

[Rugal 3:16]

2) Even in real life,the individuals who wrought outstanding accomplishments
for mankind were orphans or illigitimate children or when tragedy strikes them which makes these individuals act to compensate for such losses. For example,Leonardo da Vinci was the illigitimate child of an Italian noble and a serving wench. On the fictional side,Tarzan of the apes was an orphan,his foster mother (an ape!!! compare that to the Kents,bub) was killed in a hunting expedition by a lone African warrior. Hercules was the phony son of Zues and Alcmene,and he too became a heroic figure...I'll bet they are just as boring...hmm? [/quote]

still too many deaths, and still the loss of his parents and krypton himself could fill this up IMO.

It's called the power of history,bub...wat's dun cannot be undone...

Is this another self imposed limitation? something you'd like to think? Personally I'd undo most of my mistakes (with the carefulness of not having to have my memory go fritz if I ever saw my younger self)..

play Chrono Trigger.

Tell you what,if you had the power to go back in time,would you be able to correct your mistakes? I'll

specs.

The future,however,is subject to change,so it all depends on choices that were made in the present...and experiences from the past.

of course when I said that I assumed he knows the responsibilities and consequences as much as someone who gambles at circumstance must.

Remember that those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
In the language of my home country,"Ang hindi lumilingon sa kanyang pinag-galingan ay hindi makaka-abot sa kanyang pinag-harapan". (same idea,different language)

I'd take those as pointers,but merely pointers, In no way should I allow it to affect my limitations. besides I really don't have that philosophy (or at least I don't like to think it's a "law") of course I'm grateful though for what's behind but in the same respect.. I always look forward. and the examples I have given about "changing the past" reflect to mere circumstances if they be arrive.

Is he a zombie? I don't think so? If you had a lot of awesome powers,wouldn't you think of the consequences of your actions?

I didn't mean a literal zombie.

You would have to weigh each outcome that would derive the best moral benefit. Superman had that kind of mind and that kind of morality.

Nothing to dispute about it, but how can anyone "Relate to it" as much as they can relate to others who are well.. more "relatable" like spidey and such.

Do not mistake a bore for a man who masters himself. The man with self-control can conquer most,if not all tradgedies and problems.

all unseen by the casual eye, true as what you said may be, how's that gonna help selling more comics?

The man's got self-control,and he ain't boring. Try sticking with Spidey in real life,and let's see whose company (especially conversational company) will be boring. Sorry,Wayne,we're not talking about you. You can rest easy.

Sure let' see, what's boring about spidey?

Remember Newton's law.

And the biblical injuction,to whom MUCH is given,much is expected,much is required. And that includes powers and responsibility (to paraphrase a neurotic webhead).

Aha...you do admit the influence of Siegel and Shuster on Spidey!

Yup.

[Rugal 3:16]

Three things to remember...

one,he's an alien with awesome powers [/quote]

We all know that.

two,he chose to live among us despite his powers,that is already a sign of humility,which echoes the Messiah theme in Christianity,disguising himself as Clark Kent to maintain a level of anonymity and assume a level of humanity.

If you can connect at that level,you won't have difficulty identifying with him.

Unrelatable > what you just said.

three,the loss of both parents makes him a tragic figure,and the "fact" that he cannot marry Lois or Lana (in da old days,pare)

contrast of both parents (attitude, and the state of one alive and oe dead) > Tragic figure (which as I have said.. overused)

as for the Lois Lane-Clark kent syndrome (which is also overused)..

I'll ask you this and hope for you to answer..

does this apply to you

1. every superhero should also have this perpetually unresolved state..
(does that mean Peter and Mary Jane shouldn't Marry too no matter what)

2. Do you apply number one to every other fictional story in the same circumstance in every media?? (meaning Toshio mustn't find out Hitomi is Blue Cat as well)?

3. In a saga's end (a la "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow or something like that.. a conclusion, an ultimatum) would you have it resolved, or still it should remain unresolved until the end?

[Rugal 3:16]

Even if he had the bottle city of Kandor,Supergirl,Krypto,he still made choices alone. Even if the cards are stacked in his favor,he will be misunderstood by his the Kandorians (because he fails for the nth time to enlarge the bottle city) and the Earthmen because too much is expected of him. These aspects were little exploited,I admit,but it could have made the 80's Superman more interesting.

Giving him everyday problems in his Kent identity compared to Spidey would have
made him more human,I guess. But since he is of 2 natures,it was a writer's nightmare...it could be done. Just a little more creative thinking was needed,and more funding for better artists and writers which DC did not do for Supes' titles. [/quote]

If anyone could relate to it(the clark example you stated comparing him to spidey)? but I guess the sales tops it off.

I still say that the powerful Supes can be a figure you can empathize with,with some changes made in his Kent identity. Case in point...when Mark Waid took the writng chores of the Flash for 5 wonderful years,he slowly introduced members of the Flash family into the fold,from Jay Garrick to Johnny and Jessie Quick to Impulse
to the Zen Master of Speed (oops,forgot his name)

Hope you didn't miss that run,it was an excellent example of how the Silver age heroes could be upgraded without being ret-conned.

Okay.

[Rugal 3:16]

Captain America flourished under Mark Waid's pen...and he even emphasized his patriotic qualities more. If there ever was a straight man in Marvel's universe,it was Cap...but Mark Waid made him interesting.

Where's cap now? not even a second fiddle to spider-man. although I agree in way if you think how someone like Kyo Kusnagi could Usurp Terry Bogard.

So I hope that answers your question,or complaint,Rugal...Supes can be relevant,we need writers like Waid,Morrison,Bates,Moore,McCloud,Maggin et al to rev him up. He doesn't need a ret-con,he needs a tune-up,with the right group of writers,and an great team of artists.He can be a hero for all...unfortunately,DC seems to hate the Silver age Superman. (I hope you don't feel the same way too)

I don't hate the pre-crisis supes (I still prefer him over spidey despite what I said) but I won't be biased enough not to admit that if he doesn't appeal to the casual eye as easilly as spidey does (supes is more prone to get labeled "boyscout and this and that") if that's the case, then something must be wrong (or at least something's not THAT right).

In the 80's Supes was outmoded and outsold by the webswinger,baby (think Austin
Powers) because of hackneyed rehashed plotlines,and of course,his cast of characters was streamlined then. Over-using Curt Swan coupled with poor inkers and colorists added to the poor sales of the books. Any Marvel comic in that era had better artists and inkers (but not necessarily writers). I think DC was scrimping on talents that time and they did not have the fantastic rapport that Mort Weisinger had with the readers in Superman's Silver age days.

What I meant was the early eighties, Superman is one of the reasons why DC had a crisis.