Superman Through the Ages! Forum

Has there ever been or is there now a character in the DCU that is stronger than Superman? :?:

Well Shazam was able to go head to head with him on Kingdom Come. I also heard that Flash kind of whupped him a few issues back in The Flash comic book (not really into the Flash though, so I can't confirm.)

I'm not very well informed about other heroes, but I think there might be others out there.

If Thor is in the DC Universe (I don't keep too much of a track on other characters) then he can kick Superman's ass because he is powered by the gods, he's powered by magic.

Kingdom Come is an elsewhere story, and didn't really happen.



In the recent crossover they had, Thor didn't do too well at all against Superman and was humbled.

Though Kingdom Come WAS an Elsewhere story, it still follows the rules of DC, also the Superman in that story was definately more powerful. Anyway, yeah I've heard a lot of talk that Thor would be stronger than Superman because of his belt and hammer and well other stuff, but I really really don't think so. But then, I don't know much about the Avengers so I wouldn't really know.

Excellent. I had seen in wizard where they did a Superman vs. Thor thing and Thor won. I didn't like that. I also saw Superman vs. Spawn, Superman won that one, as we all know he would. :D

This is a list of DCU heros that I think could give Superman a good fight.
Green Lantern
Shazam
Lobo
Wonder woman

NO ONE!!!!

I guess you could add the Spectre to the list, at least the one I remember from the old days of the JLA-JSA team-ups. I hate to concede that anyone could defeat Superman, but the Spectre probably could.

What a bout Bad guys, is thare any Bad guys in the DCU that can kick Superman's butt?

Pre-Crisis, I think Mongul was the toughest Superman villain.  Superman never beat him one-to-one, and most of their battles seemed to go Mongul's way, despite Superman's best efforts.

In a pure slug fest, I think Aquaman could give Supes a good run for the money.  living on the ocean floor has to have given him some solid strength.

Hows about Darkseid?

True, Aquaman's got super-strength, but nowhere near Superman's level.  Aquaman is not bullet-proof, and I think he'd shatter every bone in his hand if he hit Superman hard enough to knock him out (if he even could).  

Aquaman might have some speed working for him, as he's used to travelling underwater and Superman isn't.  Does Superman still have a limited air supply anymore, or would he have to resurface in order to catch his breath?  That would be another advantage for Aquaman, as would be Aquaman's command of all sea life.  If he was still King of Atlantis, he would also have his armies to throw at Superman.  

As it is, however, all Superman would have to do is fly Aquaman to the desert, and the fight would be over shortly.  The heat would dehydrate Aquaman and weaken him, thus nullifying his strength, and there is no sea life to aid him.

That's just because Supes doesn't kill..

but if we do the math here, Pre-supes has potentially infinite strength (same with the hulk)..

And Mongul doesn't have super speed...

And Mongul can't fly..

A blitzkrieging Pre-supes can flatten Pre-mongul in a split second (remember he's fast enough to travel through time).

In "The Man Who Has Everything", wasn't Superman mad enough to kill Mongul?  Mongul was still able to take what Superman was dishing out, and if not for Robin's interference, wasn't Mongul about to win their battle?    

That's a lot of what I actually liked about Mongul.  Jim Starlin had introduced a new character into the Superman mythos who was so tough that Superman's superior speed and other abilities hardly mattered to him.  Sure, Superman could hurt Mongul, and Mongul would certainly know he was in a fight, but it made their battles all the more exciting!  The reader never knew for certain that Superman would actually be able to beat that monster.  

In the DCCP team-up with Starman, Mongul was still able to fight, but for his own cowardice.  Superman even admitted how glad he was that that was true to Starman, due to his own tiredness.  

I know only of a few appearances Mongul made against Superman Pre-Crisis:  the 3-parter with Martian Manhunter, Supergirl, and Spectre, the afore-mentioned team-up with Starman, and "The Man Who Has Everything."  I can't recall if Mongul was in The DC Challenge, but were there any other appearances?  ;)

Hulk does not.

as seen here : (http://www.supermantv.net/wallpaperbattles/newsuperman/hulk_small.jpg)


Sliver Surfer also did something like that by blocking Hulk's Hammer punch (that's two punches at once,. hulk best attack) with his fingers and just holding his hands together with his figures, then he just drained his power.


But you are right about Pre-supes having potentially infinite strength.

Here's some possibilities:

MONGUL:  Definitely has the edge in strength, but not so much that Supes can't hurt him.

FAORA HU-UL:  Not as strong as Supes, but an absolute mistress at Horu-Kanu, the deadliest Kryptonian martial art.  When she met Superman in an ACTION COMICS trilogy, she mastered him.

DARKSEID:  Not anywhere near as strong or as fast as Superman, but possesses the deadly Omega Effect which can transport...or destroy...just about anything.

SPECTRE:  Way above Superman's level of power.  As shown in a DCCP story, Superman put his fist right through the Spectre's body and Spec left it there, unperturbed, and took him where he wanted him.  

DR. FATE:  Not as physically powerful, but a master of magic.  In JLA #38, Fate dealt out a magic punch to a substitute Superman and knocked him out.

LORD SATANIS:  Not as physically powerful, but his magic powers give him the ability to destroy Superman.

MORDRU:  Just about the most powerful sorceror, magically and physically, in existence.  Superman is more physically powerful than Mordru, but even Mon-El's Sunday punch failed to knock him out once.  Powerful enough to take on the Legion, the JLA, and the JSA all at once...and has.

ANTI-MONITOR:  Powerful enough to take on the Spectre in a hand-rassle.  He almost killed Superman in battle in CRISIS #7, and he DID kill Supergirl.  Thankfully, he died.

KRYPTONITE KID / MAN:  Not physically strong, but his radiation gives him the power to kill any Kryptonian in a relatively short amount of time.

Plus there's any number of equally-powerful foes that can give Superman a good fight, such as the Phantom Zoners, the Bizarros, the Daxamites, d the Quarrmer, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, and Captain Thunder.  But Superman's strength is greater than J'onn J'onzz's or Wonder Woman's, and even above the level of the Hulk's.

I never understood why Kryptonite Kid never got to kill Superman (might have something to do with sales...).  If you're made of kryptonite or surrounded by it, you just hang on to Superboy...

P.S. Gang, I've really facelifted my site with animations and stuff - have a look!

Actually the pre-crisis Superman did defeat his Mongul once.  It was in DC Comics Presents (i don't remember the issue number) Mongul was using a Sun-Eater to get revenge on Superman by destroying Earth's sun.  The LSH was there to help.  They were unable to stop Mongul.  Wildfire destroyed Mongul's Sun-Eater.  Superman was able to knock Mongul out.  Granted that took all his strength to do, but he did it.  

   In the first Lexor story Luthor was able to beat a non-powered Superman.  also lex knows of ways to acquire powers equal to superman.  and in one superboy story he stole superboy's powers.  Lex has adapted brainiac's forcefield technology.   iow lex can kick superman's butt.

That's because back in the bronze age, DC gave writers their own creative freedom to portray supes as powerful (or as weak) as they like to be depending on the story..

Seriously take all of that silver age strength that juggles planets, and a sneeze that blows away solar systems..

And apply all those force in a single punch against Mongul?? no mongul would be dead.. no butchered

And no matter what speed mongul can compensate.. Supes didn't use a light speed onslaught..

Indicating that this alan moore written superman is written creatively free to be weaker.

Jim Shooter wrote a story in which "Solomon Grundy" oa all people KO'ed Supes... another proof of creative freedom..

But to see which is accurate, the strongest portrayal has to be the most valid bacause it showcases actual feats and their peak..

BTW Mongul can't fly....

And Supes can see him from a mile away and freeze him with super breath and take him to jail before the ice melts.. all in seconds. Kryptonite Kid can't fly..



And Thor's too.

I remember a DC Comics Present story where Mongul gets control of a Sun-Eater.  Mongul trashes the JLA and Supergirl combined including Hal/GL.

Jimmy calls the Legion and they send a team to the present to assist Superman.  Only Wildfire causes Mongul any pain and still is just a distraction.  Superman ends up going all out to beat Mongul one-on-one, albeit he collapses into unconsciousness himself after scoring the win.

That seems to be a consistent theme with Grundy.  EVer since Grundy gave Superman trouble in a JLA/JSA team-up due to his having absorbed magical energies from fighting Doctor Fate and Alan Scott/GL, he's been portrayed as a Superman-level opponent.  Of course, going by a Parasite/Grundy story, that could very well be because of Superman's holding back reflex keeping him from fully utilizing his abilities.  If he had the same inhibitions and levels of a normal man, he'd probably be way more powerful than Grundy in normal circumstances.

A Superboy encounter with a Tharok trap has him escape by realizing he normally holds back so he stops doing so to break out of said trap.

I could kick Superman's butt.

I would break every bone in my foot in doing so, but I could still kick his butt. :D

Captain Atom is probably more or less as powerful as post crisis Superman.

Also, in a recent JLA trade, Superman says "I can count on the fingers of one hand the beings I am afraid to face in single combat. J'onn J'onzz stands at the top of that list"

Also, there is Silver Surfer website which rightly portrays SS as being more powerful than post crisis Superman, due to the Surfer's ability to manipulate energy.

Captain Atom is definitively less powerful than Byrned Superman even early Post Crisis.  In The Weird, said Weird soundly defeated the combined efforts of JLI members Captain Atom, Martian Manhunter, Doctor Fate, and Guy/GL (I don't recall if any others were in that fight).  Superman by himself not only went toe-to-toe with the guy, but was so powerful the Weird had to hide under Superman's feet to escape.

What Superman says and what actually is portrayed are two very different things when it comes to J'Onn.  J'Onn was beaten against the Weird even with the rest of the JLI backing him up (The Weird accidentally knocks MM back like a child and a JLI member comments the guy must be strong as Superman to handle J'Onn like that).  J'Onn and the JLA fell to the Prophet in JLA:Primevil while Superman singled-handedly beat the bad guy.  MM and various JLA's have fallen to Doomsday, and MM has fallen in single-combat in Superman #175 to Doomsday; Superman, 'nuff said.  I could go on but generally Superman makes better showings than MM, either by himself or with a team backing him up. (BTW, DCCP #28, Superman first beats J'Onn definitively one-on-one, Pre Crisis, and J'Onn is like a child when Superman cuts loose.)  In Superman: Where is Thy Sting?, Superman accidentally knocks MM for a mental loop while trying to get the Martian to help his own mind telepathically.

References to Silver Surfer from DC vs Marvel are extremely suspect.  Venom was depicted giving Superman a hard time, while Kal beat the Hulk and gave Juggernaut a hard time.

To Captain Kal:

I know we are referring to characters and books from two different universes but as they are currently scripted Kal-El derieves most, if not all, of his powers from being under the yellow sun. On the other hand Silver Surfer has no such limitation; he is, as you know, the possesor of the "Power Cosmic"...which might make him a tad more powerful.


And by the way...are you a physician that you were taking call?

And what of the erstwhile Captain Marvel, billed as the Mightiest Mortal? There are some who might say that he is weaker by definition as Superman has "Powers and Abilities far beyond those of Mortal Men"; however I am referring to 2 Elseworlds books here; "Kingdom Come" and "Distant Fires" where the Big Red Cheese is shown as Kal-El's equal....

One thing that's wrong with Post-crisis Kal is that he functions like a battery, the only thing this eliminates is IMMEDIATE red sun weakness.. because a post-C supes when immediately exposed to a red-sun environment doesn't easily lose his powers right away because the "Battery" thing plays out..

the disadvantage however outweighs that little advantage.

Supes has to be in constant exposure to a yellow sun to remain charged, therefore limiting his otherworldly travel.. and the fact that he still needs to breathe makes it even more ridiculous..

The Pre-Crisis power level goes like this..

Pre-crisis kryptonians DEFAULT state are being superpowerful.. it just so happens that they are from day-one perpetually exposed to Rao (the red sun as they call it) the more complicated explanation I can assume is that the red sun functions like the "switch-off" or for example it's the cover that keeps filled water from pouring out for a more ellaborate analogy.. The Yellow sun is the "switch-on" or the act of removing the cover that keeps the water from pouring and is also the default state..

combine other factors like

Hisrory guides the EL family to be the accumulation of the finest krypton could ever breed.. In Final Fantasy 7, this is like Chocobo Breeding where Kal-el is like the Golden Chocobo.. except that the fated destruction of Krypton gives Kal the title "Ultimate Golden Chocobo".. Add that to the fact that the DCU god (The DCU equivalent of the Christian God) guides Superman as someone destined to be "The one" and thus possibly is the reason Pre-C supes has INIFINITE scope in his powers (like say The Hulk has INFINITE strength excepy he needs to be angered in order tobring out more, while supes can simply unlock those by himself)

Still Mongul can't fly, nor can Darkseid, & Supes can see Metallo coming from a mile away.

Superman has beaten Thor definitively in JLA/Avengers which is better than the Silver Surfer has ever done.  At best, IIRC, they both have been inconclusive in extended fights.  Superman's supposed power-source is obviously more of a catalyst to access higher-order energies given that even decades of solar energy absorption can't even power a single major super-feat and real plants can't even dredge up enough power for mobility.  He's clearly more powerful given certain crossovers than the likes of the Earth Green Lanterns and they tap into the Source indirectly via the Green Power.  Indeed, the Rampage and Mageddon showings indicate that Superman has his own energy absorption abilities that have sometimes been used offensively, not even counting the Energy Crisis storyline where this ability went out of control due to kryptonite-X exposure.

As for Captain Marvel, though individual showings in their respective stories tend to show Superman as the superior, the more defining books are the crossovers where they match-up next to each other.  DC's policy seems to be that regardless of individual power-ups and showings in their own books, Captain Marvel and Superman are equals in the DCU.

Does that make Superman immortal?

Well, in and of itself, the above evidence doesn't say anything about Superman's mortality.

However, we have other book evidence indicating at least vastly extended lifespan if not outright immortality (barring accidental or traumatic death).

The World of Krypton miniseries shows Kan-Z surviving for at least a millenium without clone grafts, cyborg parts, nor warsuit enhancement.  That means the normal Kryptonian lifespan for a non-powered, unassisted being is at least 1,000 years back 100,000 years before Jor-El's time.  One would tend to think this would be increased since his time and further enhanced by yellow sun exposure.

DC One Million has Superman-Prime (Kal-El) surviving up until the 853rd century and is implied to be immortal.

An Action Comics team-up with Wonder Woman where they spend a thousand years in Valhalla fighting magical demons jibes with the World of Krypton and DC One Million references above.

Superman: Where is Thy Sting? clearly states Superman is immortal and will survive to the end of Time.  It's suggested that he might outlive the universe.

I have read those as well. Somehow it apparently contradicts the Byrned Superman not being able to survive in the Sun. Also, as I mused in another thread, DC seems to be gradually moving back to the (much more) powerful Silver Age Man of Tomorrow - guess everything cycles eh?

And I have read the DC team up with Wonder Woman which, in part led to my question in the shipper thread.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Byrne's Moan of Steel had the complication of being influenced by the Eradicator during that time he was burned by close proximity to the sun.  In all other portrayals, he's not only able to survive the sun's core, he's actually more powerful from that exposure.

As another point of interest, the solar core is only about 15.6 million K temperature compared with the 100 million K temps in thermonuclear bombs.  Our nukes need to be considerably hotter than the solar core to compensate for the lack of tremendous solar mass pressure assisting the nuclear fusion process.  IOW, it makes absolutely no sense for him to handle 40 MT nukes without even a mild burn but he couldn't tolerate the solar core.  The majority of the Lost Son of Krypton's portrayals jibe with the more rational approach than that one incident.

(And I do like to come up with names to mock Byrne's version of the Metropolis Muddle. heh heh)

Not to nitpick, but I was always under the impression that most of the current atomic bombs were fission generated rather than fusion generated. Which would make for a somewhat different line of reasoning in the Superman case  :lol:

First, megaton level nukes tend to be primarily fusion based with the fission aspect only triggering a much higher fusion explosion.  The 40 MT nukes even Byrned Superman withstood are almost certainly fission-fusion bombs.  No pure fusion bombs exist.

Second, the fission trigger for those fission-fusion bombs is what produces those 100 million K plus temps that trigger the fusion explosions.  The fusion aspect kicks things up higher still.

See link and related links on that site:

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq1.html

That site is interesting but scary in terms of the sheer destructive power described.
Thanks  for the link

I recently read a Superman/Batman comic where Superman and Captain Marvel battle briefly. During the battle Superman acknowledges (at least to himself) that toe-to toe Captain Marvel has the advantage because his powers are magic based. Anyone have an explanation why that would be? Seems to me it shouldnt matter, its not like he is hitting him with lightning bolts. If this is true then Wonder Woman should have the same advantage, as she is supposedly fairly close in strength to the two of them.

Superman has a weakness to magic and the supernatural I think.

Post Crisis, fans and some writers keep getting this messed up.

The Byrned Superman isn't especially weak to magic.  He has the same reaction to magic that an ordinary man would have.

That having been said, the actual portrayals show him recovering from magical attacks quite nicely (JLA: Primevil, Kingdom Come) when he should be outright killed if he truly were just a normal man facing magics that could dust a mortal human.

Hello.  Just joined.

Hmmm.  A DC character that can defeat Superman?

A young woman by the name of Amy Winston better known as Amethyst: Princess of Gemworld.

She was able to do something that no other hero has been able to duplicate.  Wrynn the son of Prince Topaz and Lady Sapphire made a deal with the Entropy demons for power.  He took a new name and tried to take over Gemworld.  Amy easily beat him and buried him alive, and thereby giving Wrynn his claustrophobia weakness that would plauge him from then on out.  And Wrynn's new name?  Modru.  Yes.  That Mordru.  The Legion of Super-Heroes' Mordru.  Amethyst single-handly overpowered Mordru.


Probably why DC doesn't want to use Amethyst that much in action/ adventure stories.  She's just WAY too powerful.

John Byrne.................